Introducing PMCDAP (Production Music CD Archive Project)

[Swift138]

(EDIT: Now up! https://pmcdap.org/index.html)
PMCDAP (Production Music CD Archive Project) is a new website/archival project that I, with a couple of friends, have been working on for the past month. Our goal is for the site to become the "Redump" of production music CDs (for those who don't know, Redump is a database responsible for preserving and cataloging video games and other game-related media released on optical media, i.e. CDs/DVDs/BluRays); based on dumping albums into a "pure" disc image format. (Reasons why to do this over ripping tracks to WAV/etc. are explained in the upcoming FAQ.)

Our website features information about each album/media item, including the catalog number, company/label, release year, etc. However, like Redump, it does not offer downloads of the disc images itself due to legal reasons; it instead provides the hashes of each file, as well as image scans of the media (unlike Redump). The actual disc image files themselves will be stored some other place, likely some place more "secret".

As of this writing, a total of 922 albums (including samplers and CD-ROMs related to the music labels) are present in the database, the first 570 of which have a page in the database. These all come from my personal music collection. These include the vast majority of Carlin Production Music's library, including virtually everything released before 2000 as well as the entire Classical series and almost the entire Archive series before the switch to digipak after the Warner-Chappell acquisition. (still missing CAS 027)

The website is currently not available yet (the website exists, but merely shows a "coming soon" message). When it is, it will be available to any contributions, as long as they follow the instructions on the website. Hopefully, there will be many contributors who have production music that they're willing to preserve. As stated above, the files themselves won't be uploaded to the website, but they should be put somewhere "out there" so they won't end up "MIA", possibly a certain "Archive". But perhaps that should be discussed somewhere a little more private.

The website also features a series of lists of albums released on CD from many different labels, based on our research, as well as a more detailed collaborative spreadsheet to keep track of which albums are present/missing from these labels (contributions are also very welcome)!

Finally, there is a DAT file available for download, styled after ROM metadata DATs, which includes metadata about each album including a list of each file and their hashes. No programs currently have been developed to handle these DAT files (as far as we know of), but hopefully such programs will exist in the future.

I have attached several screenshots of the website for a preview of what it looks like. The website is basically complete in terms of functionality, but before we put it online, we still have one more possible legal issue that I would like to ask about:

This project directly hosts image scans of the media which may be a little legally risky. Would this be a serious enough concern, and if so, what are some ways (including a different, external hosting website) it could be worked around?

Anyway, hopefully we will be successful with our project and manage to keep it "afloat", and hope many people will contribute!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15VFcmpLGj05mKBfnO3iBnb7hWSuMaX2C/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17a0O0a0eEseJnYF30zI2JyfSeslynYQL/view?usp=sharing

[Craig-UK]

This does sound awesome. I might have some which I can help out with though I'd have to see what you'd require in order to accept contributions.

Keep us updated on this 

[Swift138]

ATTENTION: PMCDAP is now online!

https://pmcdap.org/index.html

Anyone who has production music CDs that AREN'T currently in the database is recommended to CONTRIBUTE after reading the website's FAQ and Contribution tutorial!
If you have already ripped your CDs to WAV, etc., then they MUST be re-dumped to actual image files (see the tutorial). We need all the contributors we can get!

(Note: Due to legal reasons, the actual CD dump image files aren't to be submitted as part of the website; instead, they should be stored elsewhere on other external domains, such as a certain Archive or a Drain of Pixels. Feel free to contact us as such.)

Contributors are also welcome, and recommended for work on the interactive spreadsheet for details about the project's current progress, which can be found in the "Lists" section.

[godzfire]

I think this is an extremely good idea and will be both contributing and getting material from others to add.

Are you working with RetroMatic by chance? The website has the same layout as him.

[Swift138]

I think this is an extremely good idea and will be both contributing and getting material from others to add.

Are you working with RetroMatic by chance? The website has the same layout as him.

I'm not currently working with him, at least not right now, but I am using the same HTML development tools (Bootstrap and DataTables). My website was actually partly inspired by his. Hopefully he can contribute to my site, since he has a lot of CDs. The "? CD" icon is also from there.

[nidostar]

This appears to be an extremely well thought out and ambitious project. Congratulations!

I know it's largely out of your control but it's such a shame that the tech behind it is largely geared to Windows. Whilst you suggest alternatives for macOS users they are not straight forward and some appear extremely labour intensive to set up with explanations full of if's and but's. I don't mean to sound negative at such an early stage in your project. It's more out of disappointment that, as it currently stands, I doubt I shall be able to participate.

[Swift138]

This appears to be an extremely well thought out and ambitious project. Congratulations!

I know it's largely out of your control but it's such a shame that the tech behind it is largely geared to Windows. Whilst you suggest alternatives for macOS users they are not straight forward and some appear extremely labour intensive to set up with explanations full of if's and but's. I don't mean to sound negative at such an early stage in your project. It's more out of disappointment that, as it currently stands, I doubt I shall be able to participate.

If anyone is willing to help us come up with easier to use applications for Mac, please let us know and the guide will be updated. Like you said, this project has only just started.

[kpmhill]

Redump is a database responsible for preserving and cataloging video games and other game-related media released on optical media, i.e. CDs/DVDs/BluRays); based on dumping albums into a "pure" disc image format. (Reasons why to do this over ripping tracks to WAV/etc. are explained in the upcoming FAQ.)

Is there a way to post a brief, probably oversimplified explanation? Really curious.

[godzfire]

I went back and re-read what the goal of this project was. I thought you were trying to create a central download repository for discs instead of just a Redump of disc information.

While your original intent is still sound, not having the actual uploads is a disappointment because we are still dealing with the increasing reality of forever lost media:
#1- discontinued/abandoned/shuttered Libraries and left to obtaining remaining physical copies or ripped legacy copies
#2- people who might have said only remaining sources (sometimes a single person) no longer being around and/or the download links they provided no longer working/removed

I feel this is a much larger issue that needs to get addressed. A perfect example of this is member BlackwatchPlaid and all of his gigantic contributions. He uploaded massive amount of library collections, like this Sonoton one of 300+ CDs: https://librarymusicthemes.com/index.php?topic=555.0. BWP no longer actively posts here. They were hosted on Zippyshare, which in 2023 shut down, forever losing those links.

Having Redump of disc information is good, but it's fruitless if the actual physical/digital copy it references is forever lost and no longer available for those who are looking for it.

[Swift138]

I went back and re-read what the goal of this project was. I thought you were trying to create a central download repository for discs instead of just a Redump of disc information.

While your original intent is still sound, not having the actual uploads is a disappointment because we are still dealing with the increasing reality of forever lost media:
#1- discontinued/abandoned/shuttered Libraries and left to obtaining remaining physical copies or ripped legacy copies
#2- people who might have said only remaining sources (sometimes a single person) no longer being around and/or the download links they provided no longer working/removed

I feel this is a much larger issue that needs to get addressed. A perfect example of this is member BlackwatchPlaid and all of his gigantic contributions. He uploaded massive amount of library collections, like this Sonoton one of 300+ CDs: https://librarymusicthemes.com/index.php?topic=555.0. BWP no longer actively posts here. They were hosted on Zippyshare, which in 2023 shut down, forever losing those links.

Having Redump of disc information is good, but it's fruitless if the actual physical/digital copy it references is forever lost and no longer available for those who are looking for it.

Thank you for your insight. That is a very good point. I will also try to get together a source where these can be downloaded as well, but this will be more legally risky, and might involve more people to prepare. Perhaps Archive or a similar website could do for now?

[Swift138]

Redump is a database responsible for preserving and cataloging video games and other game-related media released on optical media, i.e. CDs/DVDs/BluRays); based on dumping albums into a "pure" disc image format. (Reasons why to do this over ripping tracks to WAV/etc. are explained in the upcoming FAQ.)

Is there a way to post a brief, probably oversimplified explanation? Really curious.

Basically, there's "gap data" that most CD rippers discard (which isn't useful, but necessary for 1:1 preservation of CDs, as well as internal ISRC tag data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Recording_Code), and internal CD text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-Text), which is present especially in later Carlin CDs, which are also likely to be lost or overwritten with CD ripping tools. However, it may still be possible to recreate 1:1 copies of CDs if all of this by ripping to WAV/FLAC and CUE format if all of the above is left intact, with the proper gap data represented in the audio files and all the ISRC tags and internal CD text present in the resulting CUE file.
Also, MP3 and OGG are both lossy formats, meaning they are slightly degraded compared to the original in order to decrease the filesize. FLAC, however, is lossless.

[lbjames]

short answer is there are occassions where the first few seconds of the next track (example: track 2) happen to be at end of the previous CD track (track 1)

[nidostar]

Now I've had a chance to re-read all the info on this project I have a question to help me better understand the aims of the project.

I take it the purpose is to produce a catalogue of library CDs and their respective tracks. Much like that which is already available at the Production Music Wiki and to some extent Discogs. But in addition you want to include ISRC tags and file hashes the collection of which necessitates a rather convoluted process using dedicated software. I understand what they are but in terms of cataloguing CDs and their contents I am unclear what purpose they will be put to. For me it is enough to refer to the CD titles and track names. The ISRC tag and file hashes add no value to the catalogue. Is it not collecting data for collecting's sake?

As I've said, the collection of this additional, seemingly extraneous data, just complicates the process of compiling the catalogue. Or is there some other purpose for which you would want to record this additional info?

[godzfire]

I had written out a long reply but unfortunately LMT refreshed and I lost it, so shorthanding my reply:

I think it should be examined of what the goal COULD or SHOULD be:
1- Whereas LMT, Production Music Wiki, and Discogs all have a portions of information, having a singular comprehensive, searchable, and sortable libraries database would be DEFINITELY welcomed and wanted. This project at it's core is doing that, which is good.

2- The additional complex technical requirements in order to contribute is not possible for the regular user and will cause the majority to not contribute. As nidostar commented and I agree with, the extraneous data such as MD5, SHA1, CRC32 Hashes serves no practical purpose. Video games are different because there are so many copies and plentiful.

3- Most people don't even have their original CDs anymore and just have ripped copies. A lot never even had the original CD and just was able to secure rips from some other location. Requiring the above information means all these contributions aren't eligible, which would be a grave misstep as some of our only copies of releases are these rips. This would not be a problem if Hash information was only optional.

4- As I pointed out above, the most important part of the entry is the actual music itself, and still having available copies of those so they aren't forever lost to time. This is a more complicated legal issue, and could be a separate component to the project. However I think at least initially focusing on discontinued/unavailable libraries/albums is a start.

---------

Long and short, here's what I think should be included for each release:
Main ID3 Metadata: Catalog ID, Title, Label/Company, Year, Media, # Discs
Tracklist: Track #, Track Name, Artist/Composer, Time
Scans
*OPTIONAL*: Hashes; MD5, SHA1, CRC32, etc


EDIT: I was just looking at the FAQ if a Discord has been created yet for this, and it says "We do not have a Discord, or ever plan to have a Discord, for various reasons.". This is very disappointing and I'd honestly like to know why and if it could be reconsidered. I saw there was talk of maybe an IRC chat, but honestly a Discord would be much better.

[Swift138]

I had written out a long reply but unfortunately LMT refreshed and I lost it, so shorthanding my reply:

I think it should be examined of what the goal COULD or SHOULD be:
1- Whereas LMT, Production Music Wiki, and Discogs all have a portions of information, having a singular comprehensive, searchable, and sortable libraries database would be DEFINITELY welcomed and wanted. This project at it's core is doing that, which is good.

2- The additional complex technical requirements in order to contribute is not possible for the regular user and will cause the majority to not contribute. As nidostar commented and I agree with, the extraneous data such as MD5, SHA1, CRC32 Hashes serves no practical purpose. Video games are different because there are so many copies and plentiful.

3- Most people don't even have their original CDs anymore and just have ripped copies. A lot never even had the original CD and just was able to secure rips from some other location. Requiring the above information means all these contributions aren't eligible, which would be a grave misstep as some of our only copies of releases are these rips. This would not be a problem if Hash information was only optional.

4- As I pointed out above, the most important part of the entry is the actual music itself, and still having available copies of those so they aren't forever lost to time. This is a more complicated legal issue, and could be a separate component to the project. However I think at least initially focusing on discontinued/unavailable libraries/albums is a start.

---------

Long and short, here's what I think should be included for each release:
Main ID3 Metadata: Catalog ID, Title, Label/Company, Year, Media, # Discs
Tracklist: Track #, Track Name, Artist/Composer, Time
Scans
*OPTIONAL*: Hashes; MD5, SHA1, CRC32, etc


EDIT: I was just looking at the FAQ if a Discord has been created yet for this, and it says "We do not have a Discord, or ever plan to have a Discord, for various reasons.". This is very disappointing and I'd honestly like to know why and if it could be reconsidered. I saw there was talk of maybe an IRC chat, but honestly a Discord would be much better.

The reason why we put in hash information was this is what video game preservation products such as Redump use, and it confirms that anyone has an exact copy of the disc in the database. However, it doesn't actually seem very necessary, as you said, so we will likely remove that in the future. Regarding "ISRC tags", these are actually part of the built-in CD data which will be automatically included. Some CD WAV/FLAC ripping software do include this, although I will need to investigate later.
We will re-think our options about an IRC chat. However, I myself have had negative experience with Discord in the past, which is why we stated about that. It would actually be helpful to gather information and figure out plans.