Author Topic: Do we really need FLAC?  (Read 8321 times)

nidostar

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Do we really need FLAC?
« on: January 23, 2023, 11:07:21 AM »
In a recent exchange with @likedeeler we discussed the authenticity of a FLAC download and whether it was a true lossless rip. You can find it here: https://librarymusicthemes.com/index.php?topic=1126.msg38973#msg38973.

In conclusion I questioned whether our desire for FLAC formatted files was a necessity or merely an obsession for perfection which is not always realised. FLAC rips of CDs certainly sound sharper than lossy ones. But there have been occasions where I have gone to replace a lossy file with a lossless one only to find that the lossy file sounds better. Obviously there are many factors that affect the end quality of a FLAC rip just as with a lossy format. In the past I have found that lossy recordings at 320kbps or better still in VBR sounded pretty good. A comparison of a FLAC file and a lossy conversion in VBR (220-260kbps) that I carried out with Spek showed very little difference at the high end frequencies between a FLAC and a VBR MP3. Certainly not enough of a difference that the human ear could detect.

So I wonder whether, in our pursuit for lossless perfection, we risk sacrificing the quality of how the music sounds? I'd be interested in other members thoughts.

Greta

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2023, 01:54:56 PM »
A lossless compressed file such as FLAC, ALAC, APE, is undoubtedly better than a compressed one for obvious reasons.

The point is that if someone makes a crappy flac rip (with a crappy hardware, with maybe wrong settings) of a vinyl in bad conditions, than a mp3 rip of a good record made correctly could even sound better.
Not to mention fake FLACs such as upscaled MP3s ecc.
It's up to you what to keep if you happen to have both versions.

Generally speaking, a lossless rip is always better than the mp3 one of the same record.

IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 01:57:43 PM by Greta »
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stackjackson

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2023, 02:39:23 PM »
I pick and choose which rips to replace or "upgrade" -- like nidostar, I sometimes prefer the sound of the older lossy rip to a newer lossless one, even as low as 192kbps. But as Greta notes, it depends, of course, on the quality of the original rip, the OP's hardware, settings, etc.

As I understand it, the "difference" really lies in whether you listen to music on headphones (as I tend to do) or on large speakers. Also, lossless is best for editing, etc.
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C0NN1E

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2023, 07:16:07 PM »
Lossy formats like MP3 remove data. That is what lossy means, data is removed. Lossless means the data is kept. You don't gain any new data with a lossy format. Also, MP3s are a detriment to archival purposes and they are certainly not what any engineer intended. You should have a lossless master, then make copies from that if you do lossy.

Besides, even if you prefer lossy formats, MP3 is probably the worst format you can use. Ogg Vorbis, while unable to load tag data properly on Windows, is supported on nearly every platform now, and offers better compression, better quality, better file sizes and even supports higher bitrates, than a similar file encoded in MP3. The same can be said for OPUS and heck, even AAC, but those aren't as supported.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 07:19:29 PM by C0NN1E »

Psyclon

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2023, 09:58:46 PM »
To make it short: No. FLAC is in the vast majority of the cases, overkill and unneccesary. I am a big fan of lossy encoding, especially in our case here, it is the perfect end-user format: Many LPs being shared here (which is not a very accurate medium), often very old and mastered in mind of it being on a LP (and thus "deforming" the sound to accustom to the medium, not aiming at the perfect reproduction of sound in mind). The mastering is also much better than the loudness wars crap we have to deal with since the start of this Millenium, so the stress on the MP3 encoders are also less (e.g. the clipping issue at hot-mastered 0dB peaking CDs). And there is no reason to change our music afterwards - we listen to it. Period.

MP3s can actually be used for archiving, it's then called "transparency". While other say "archiving" needs to be bit-perfect. But if a LP is worn-out, it is already not "perfect", so you have  "bit-perfect" copy of a worn-out and thus imperfect medium. Contradictory and pointless, innit? Who knows how the actual master tape sounded before it went to vinyl pressing facilities? Is the FLAC LP now the "real" version? So archiving your 40year old eBay'd record surely is a noble task I also profit from, but claiming it to be THE "real" version of what the composer and engineer had in mind is basically lying to yourself as each disk is worn out differently - storage, usage, used equipment et cetera have different effects on each disc. (Obviously not a thing with CDs). An example? There was a FLAC share of the PARRY LP with "Contact Breaker" on it (122 - Videopop), a fantastic song. The MP3 version of the BMG website obviously sounded different as it's not a 40-year old LP stored in a potentionally moldy basement/attic at someone's house. So basically the FLAC of an imperfect medium is considered "perfect" for many, whilst the more accurate MP3 from the very library owner accessing the master tapes is called "unsuitable for archiving".........

Anyways, I sent every WAV and FLAC through LAME of my own settings. When I had the opportunity to get the WAVs I took my good time to read whether I want FLAC or not. And I came to the quick conclusion that MP3 (or any lossy format, but I take MP3 as synonyme) is fantastic.

To me, it is overy obvious people parrot anti-MP3 sentiments without actual hearing tests or if they do so, absolutely exaggerate their observations ("MP3 SUCKSS!!" or "DIFFERENCE IS LIKE DAY AND NIGHT"), mostly stemming from the Napster era when MP3 encoders were horrible. In fact, lossy encoding is so efficient it should be applauded for what it does. The second thing I hear is: "They take away data". What these people who say this leave out is: Years of science behind that. Removing masked bands is (almost*) like leaving out infrared images on a BluRay - You just don't need it because you can't* hear it.

Your ears are a factor, then your brain. On top of that is the medium of your choice. I often shake my head when a 256 kBit/s MP3 is frowned upon just for the sake it's an MP3 rip but the record rip is far worse. What's the point? To hear the clicks clearer? Leave alone the equipment you use. If you manage to get perfect hearing, can somehow trick your brain (confirmation bias) and have expensive equipment, then LPs are not the medium of your choice in the first place. Sorry, it's like that. So FLAC rips of *anything* is what I also prefer as base source, but audible difference are almost zero. You can see it on the spectographs - barely, but you listen with your ears, not with your eyes.

* There are frequencies shading the "surrounding" sound, but these are barely audible.

As you see, I use the term "barely" a lot. And that is what MP3 really is about. Saving literally hundreds of kBit/s that have barely any audible relevance. Frequencies are mostly intact at 256 kBit/s. MP3 files are transparent at about 200 kBit/s, the 120 kBit/s that is needed to reach the limit of the standard MP3 is more than sufficient; these bits are literally "luxury" bits so to speak for hi-hats and crash cymbals, usually my files end up having about 275 kBit/s with high frequencies going on (so not just wobbling basses). Freeform MP3 exist and allow for more bitrate by the way.  OGG and AAC have almost no difference to MP3s at high bitrate (>200 kBit/s), they only excell MP3 at lower bitrates in the 128 kBit/s area - something you guys and gals don't touch anyways. Everything at 200 kBit/s sound the same. So even that is a non-issue.

Quote
*MP3-encoded files are generally considered artifact-free at bitrates at/above 192kbps.
* Vorbis ogg files are supposedly artifact-free at bitrates at/above 160kbps.
* AAC- and Opus-encoded files, depending on the particular encoder implementation, are claimed to be artifact-free at lower bitrates than both Vorbis ogg and MP3.

Re-encoding makes no sense in future - that is what I also hear a lot. "What if in future...". MP3 is roaylty free and thus even more accessible than ever. Saving space is not needed as MP3 is already very compact, the competitors save almost nothing and sounding not much better. And even if so, I can create WAVs out of my VBR0 MP3s - which sound perfectly fine!

The reason why I like FLACs and I also had a few APEs here is that I have control over the encoder. If it's Xing or a poorly set-up FhG (e.g. in the MAGIX programs), the MP3s created are horrible and create the stigma of "MP3s sound bad". So far, everytime I had a weird-sounding hi-hat, it was apparent in the WAV too. I have a few files where the V0 VBR LAME, usually 220-260 kBit/s, is constantly using 320 kBits. The tracks are called "Circledrums" and "Line Feed" from the SONOTON album Sound Force. And I could not hear any difference. When the synthesizer kicks in, it masks the high frequencies and the encoder goes down to 290 kBit/s. If I have those files in WAV, FLAC or MP3 makes no difference, except that the other ones have information stored our brain would ignore anyways. An MP3 with proper psymodel (psycho-accoustic processing) does not need more than 320 kBit/s to sound fantastic, BECAUSE it is using said model. It is the whole point; a MP3 still going to 800 kBit/s would be faulty and does not do what it is supposed to do.

I don't know about you people's equipment, environment (how is your furniture placed? Where are you seated while listening? et cetera), what your chain is (decoder, DACs, soundcards,...), what your hearing is and how well you are trained to find artifacts. But is it still enjoyable if you look for flaws?? Do you go into a gallery just to complain about some oil blebs on an oil painting instead of enjoying said painting?

Hydrogenaudio is very clear about my personal observations too:

Quote
Human hearing sensitivity peaks at 1 or 2 KHz, and drops from there. Children and young people under 20 years old can't hear above about 20 KHz at all, and this upper limit decreases with age. Many people can't hear anything above ~18 KHz at all, even test tones. This affords an opportunity to limit the frequencies an MP3 encoder cares about to just those that humans can hear.

The point of lossy formats like MP3 is to achieve transparency while saving space, with sacrifices made in ways that change the audio in ways that are minimally audible. Removing what is likely to be ultrasonic content is an effective way to achieve that goal. If you're not concerned about saving space, or you are determined to erroneously regard any sacrifices to the audio to be a risk to or reduction in quality, then for the peace of mind, you should not be using MP3 at all; rather, you should use a lossless format.

Quote
The characteristics of music present further reasons to lowpass the input to an MP3 encoder.

Just as you can't hear a mosquito buzzing when firing a cannon, quiet sounds are masked by louder ones. [...]

Musical instruments produce sound within the range of 40 Hz to about 16 KHz. Generally, each instrument produces a loud, relatively low-frequency fundamental tone, accompanied by numerous quieter overtones at higher frequencies. Although a few instruments (cymbals, trumpets) may produce overtones at higher frequencies, there is so little acoustic energy above 16 KHz, those tones tend to be masked by the much louder sounds at lower frequencies. Consequently, most people can't distinguish music that's missing frequencies above 16 KHz from music that isn't. When the difference is noticeable, it tends to be only in loud transients, such as percussion hits. Accordingly, well-designed MP3 encoders allow high-frequency content through only when it's sufficiently loud or would not be masked.

Again kind of a non-issue again: Either you have very clear very high frequencies which are properly encoded lossy - or it's being masked -> not fully audible anymore -> Less bitrate required for equal reproduction -> 320 kBit/s are sufficient.

About the original post: Yes, MP3s change the sound sometimes to your likings, but that is not quite the "fault" of the encoding, it's just your personal preference, similar to "LPs sound so warm" and "CDs so cold". The wrong sound - even with the mastering for LPs in mind! - of a LPs is prefered to the way more accurate reproduction of a CD. Just like some people like a violin recorded in a perfect studio environment while others want the accoustics of a concert hall/opera house.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 11:00:31 PM by Psyclon »

stackjackson

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2023, 11:20:34 PM »
I appreciate Psyclon's detailed response.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, for what it's worth, I always convert FLACs to MP3s for loading on my various listening devices... For me, lossless is strictly for storage purposes.
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Porn Library

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2023, 02:57:02 AM »
Lossy formats like MP3 remove data. That is what lossy means, data is removed. Lossless means the data is kept. You don't gain any new data with a lossy format. Also, MP3s are a detriment to archival purposes and they are certainly not what any engineer intended. You should have a lossless master, then make copies from that if you do lossy.

Besides, even if you prefer lossy formats, MP3 is probably the worst format you can use. Ogg Vorbis, while unable to load tag data properly on Windows, is supported on nearly every platform now, and offers better compression, better quality, better file sizes and even supports higher bitrates, than a similar file encoded in MP3. The same can be said for OPUS and heck, even AAC, but those aren't as supported.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

moodmusic

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2023, 08:37:20 AM »
The term lossless is a misnomer imo. For vinyl rips it all starts with the quality of AD conversion, specifically the hardware and clocking (jitter-free). My guess is that only a small fraction of rips are recorded properly or near lossless.

Greta

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2023, 01:54:26 PM »
I've always read from many people, not only on this thread but in the past too, they put in doubt lossless format citing as reason the quality of the vinyl, the AD conversion, the hardware used to listen, ecc ecc.
This has quite nothing to do with the topic we are discussing here. Is mp3, by any chance, coming from a different source than flac? Is, by any chance, mp3 immune to the "problems" coming from the quality of the vinyl, AD conversion ecc?
We're talking here about a comparison between lossy and lossless, obviously coming from the same source.

To me, mp3 is quite like a dinosaur, an obsolete codec that no longer makes sense nowadays.
What is the purpose in using a codec just to save space, when we have all the speed and storage we want/need for considerable lower prices than years ago?
Said codec undoubtedly throw away data, and it's not proven it throws away only the "non-audible" frequencies. Also, it's not proven it works perfectly without sacrificing bits of the necessary data.
Rather, comparing spectrals of a WAV/FLAC with the MP3 ones of the same track taken from the same source, is visible the loss of data even to the lower frequencies.

mp3 was about to be abandoned many years ago, if its inventors hadn't try to save it by launching a device on the market that could only read that format. What a craftiness!
Oh, look at that, a portable player, useful! Yes, useful, but too bad they put ridiculous amounts of memory in it and you can only listen to mp3s...
This is the only reason why mp3 format is still alive today. This is history.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 01:59:06 PM by Greta »
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C0NN1E

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2023, 03:58:59 PM »
Agree with Greta here. If we want to listen to FLAC, let us listen to FLAC. The majority of the forum uses it for good reason and making a thread about if we really need it is kind of disheartening to see. I may not like MP3, but I at least recommend better lossy formats over MP3, like Ogg Vorbis and Opus.

I'm one of the few that can hear an audible difference between lossy and lossless. Whether that's something my brain or ears wants me to think is not my concern. I just know that I enjoy FLAC for what it offers
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 04:01:28 PM by C0NN1E »

moodmusic

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2023, 06:51:06 PM »
What is the purpose in using a codec just to save space, when we have all the speed and storage we want/need for considerable lower prices than years ago?

I think what you're missing is that demand for streaming media is growing exponentially with the emerging world still coming online. Storing files on a hard drive for personal use is one thing. Streaming it across the worldwide web is another.

Truth is, there hasn't been a replacement for mp3. Or at least getting the industry to adopt a new format. More recently Facebook Research claims to have developed a hypercompression encoder that's 10x more efficient than mp3. Your can read about it here https://ai.facebook.com/blog/ai-powered-audio-compression-technique/

To your question about the sources of mp3s.. that's very hard to know. I think it's a constant process of new quality replacing old quality as technology for home recording gets cheaper. For example, today you can buy a top end audio converter for $500-$1000, which is equivalent to a $4000-$8000 converter from 10 years ago.

I can hear the quality transformation because I have multiple versions of library music that was recorded to digital format starting some time in the late 2000s. There were websites selling hard drives loaded with mp3 vinyl collections for $20-$40. They sounded great then. Now they sound horrible.


kpmhill

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2023, 07:26:53 AM »
MP3 is probably the worst format you can use. Ogg Vorbis, while unable to load tag data properly on Windows, is supported on nearly every platform now, and offers better compression, better quality, better file sizes and even supports higher bitrates, than a similar file encoded in MP3. The same can be said for OPUS and heck, even AAC, but those aren't as supported.

I'm not sure why anyone would use Ogg Vorbis, if it's unable to load tag data properly on Windows. And support for AAC is vastly greater than for Ogg Vorbis – due to the size of Apple's ecosystem.

kpmhill

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2023, 07:50:36 AM »
for what it's worth, I always convert FLACs to MP3s for loading on my various listening devices... For me, lossless is strictly for storage purposes.

That's what I do, too. Except that I use AAC as my lossy codec, instead of MP3.

FLAC is clearly a much better codec for archival purposes. You don't lock in all of of a lossy codec's psychoacoustic assumptions for future listeners, incl. yourself. From lossless to lossy – is a one-way trip. Why make that trip if you don't have to?

FLAC/lossless is the best format for archiving & production. Lossy is more practical for distribution, because of file size.

In the video biz, they divide codecs into production codecs, and distribution codecs. You use high-bitrate production codecs during the production process, so that you can edit/manipulate the video data with less generation loss.

When production is finished, the high-bitrate files are rendered into lossier distribution versions, which are what Netflix or Amazon stream to you. That's my philosophy for music files: get lossless files, so that I can do any manipulation I prefer (trimming, noise/click reduction, etc.) from the first generation data. When that's done, I "render" that file into a lossy codec that's better for "distribution" to my devices.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 11:21:18 PM by kpmhill »

John_Fred

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2023, 01:08:09 PM »
The answer to this is fairly subjective.  I was once quite happy with mp3s at one time, as they were pretty much the standard as far as audio files were concerned from off t'internet.  It wasn't really until I started paying more attention, thanks in large to this forum is has to be said, that I noticed that there were certain nuances revealed when listening to lossless rips.  FLACS are a compromise, of sorts, in that they retain the quality but reduce the size.  Which, for us with limited disk space, always has to be a consideration.  WAV files, as we know, are massive as they're, literally, the raw data that comes off a compact disc.  Or, as is becoming more prevalent, that which is ripped from vinyl and saved in WAV.  FLACs sweeten things a bit, in that respect.  For those who don't mind lossy sound, (or aren't that fussed about hearing every little sound), mp3s are sufficient, if they're in a decent enough bitrate.  For those who do want to hear every sound, then FLAC is the obvious compromise.

C0NN1E

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Re: Do we really need FLAC?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2023, 03:29:54 PM »
MP3 is probably the worst format you can use. Ogg Vorbis, while unable to load tag data properly on Windows, is supported on nearly every platform now, and offers better compression, better quality, better file sizes and even supports higher bitrates, than a similar file encoded in MP3. The same can be said for OPUS and heck, even AAC, but those aren't as supported.

I'm not sure why anyone would use Ogg Vorbis, if it's unable to load tag data properly on Windows. And support for AAC is vastly greater than for Ogg Vorbis – due to the size of Apple's ecosystem.

Well, if Microsoft cared enough to fix it (and it would be a REALLY easy fix), then Ogg Vorbis would be perfect, imo. Still not perfect for Mac devices, but most end users are on Windows.